Hawaii Randy's Real Estate Opinions: Is Your Listing a Must See to Appreciate?

Is Your Listing a Must See to Appreciate?

I showed a property this morning that was labeled by the listing agent as "Must See to Appreciate."

Picture MisssingNow that is an interesting statement.

  • What did it mean?
  • Would you like to guess?
  • I will help you out.  The listing gives you nothing to hang your hat on.
  • No pictures to start with.
  • The zoning was mislabeled.

The listing gave you a few hints as to the status of the property:

  1. It was one of the lowest priced homes in the area.
  2. It is only 4 years old.
  3. It had a large lot.
  4. It was on the market a long time.
  5. It was tenant occupied.

An interesting thing I observed on the public remarks was a statement to call the listing agent for more information.  The contact information for the listing agent is on the agent's showing instructions, where the public can't see.

I called yesterday to make the appointment for 9:30am today.  The agent indicated that there was a lockbox and to knock in case the tenant was home.  Ooops a red flag.

Ms. Realtor, will you call the tenant to be sure it is ok for us to go?  She replied that she would.

We arrived at the property to find it was a flag lot.  Another detail left off the listing. 

The house is backed against a step hill that looks like a mud slide waiting to happen; possibly the reason for no pictures.  There was a BIG electrical box with two buttons labeled pump 1 and pump 2 that was at the front of the parking stall outside against the hill.  In the parking stall there was a large round steel plate that reminded me of hatch for a missile tube.   Hmmm that must be for moving the water coming off that hill somehow. 

There were also two cars in the driveway.  They must be home.

I walked up the stairs and across the porch, stepping over the doggie doodoo.  You read that right.  It was right in the center of the deck.  Ok a little dog poop is not going to slow me down.  I knock on the door.  No answer.  So as I have done hundreds of times I retrieve the key from the lock box and open the door.  I call out hello anyone home?  No response again.

As we entered the home we see the TV is on.  Someone must be home.  I call again and still no response.  I look back towards the three bedrooms and the doors are closed.  I tell my clients we need to cut this short and move them outside.

What an interesting listing.

  • I doubt the agent ever called the tenants.
  • The listing had no pictures, left off key information and was flat wrong in several cases.
  • That big hill made up most of the square footage on the lot, leaving not much usable land.
  • The steep muddy hill almost touching the home looks to be a huge issue.  What a lousy place to build a house.

Well I saw it and I did not appreciate it.  That was one other thing that the listing agent had wrong in the listing.



Randy L. Prothero, REALTOR®

Broker-in-Charge, ABR, AHWD, CRB, CRS, e-PRO, GRI, MRP, SFR

eXp Realty

Team Leader - "The Prothero Group"

Randy Prothero is well established as an expert in working with military / VA clients and first time home buyers.  His home seller's (listing) campaign is one of the most aggressive marketing programs in the area.  His luxury home listings sell faster and for more money.

Based out of Mililani, Hawaii. Randy services the island of Oahu (Honolulu County) Performs mediations and ombudsman services for the Board of Realtors.  To improve overall professionalism in his area Randy also offers classes for real estate agents. 

www.HawaiiRandy.comOahu (Honolulu County) Property Search  Hawaii Military Relocations

Comment balloon 64 commentsRandy Prothero • March 14 2007 09:38AM


LOL!!!  Oh, is there NO truth in advertising anymore? 
Posted by Sarah Cooper (Real Estate Shows) almost 12 years ago
I hate when that happens.  If I do use "Must see to appreciate" it's only when the inside  is much better than one would expect by just seeing it from the outside.
Posted by Tim Maitski, Truth, Excellence and a Good Deal (Atlanta Communities Real Estate Brokerage) almost 12 years ago

Sarah - I knew something was wrong, at least with an agent who has a home on the market for 9 months or more and can't even post a photo.

Tim - I try to post some pictures of the inside at least to support that statement and give a description of the condition and why they need to see it.

Posted by Randy Prothero, Hawaii REALTOR, (808) 384-5645 (eXp Realty) almost 12 years ago
Does your board not fine agents for not putting a photo of the property in the MLS? Wow you are a Brave Soul Randy! I'm not sure I would have wanted to touch that one, specially after the deck incident.
Posted by Lysa Napolitano almost 12 years ago
I love it!  That comment falls right in there with my other favorite 'won't last long' (which is usually in the remarks long after the house has become stale).  Will some agents EVER get it?
Posted by Leigh Brown, CEO, Dream Maker - Charlotte, NC (Leigh Brown & Associates, RE/MAX Executive) almost 12 years ago
Ha ha!  I had the same experience with the SAME house!  The one I am talking about fits your scenario to a "T".  Was it about 1 mile from your office down at the bottom of the hill tucked in the very end of that cul-de-sac?  If not.....then it was a very freakish resemblance and that must mean there are 2 of the exact same agents out there!
Posted by 1SG (Ret.) David Kucic, President and Owner (Hawaii Military Realty, Inc.) almost 12 years ago

This was a good post....LOL.  I went to show a house once that I had never seen...the listing said "quiant little white pickett fence around backyard"....

When we arrived half of the fence was laying on the ground and it looked as though the rest of it had not been painted since the first time which must have been several years.

I really try to describe my listings as they really are.  Now I want them to sell but in my opinion it does my image as a real estate agent no good if I paint a pretty picture and when they arrive it is a dump.

Just my thoughts.... 

Posted by "JT" Prevatte (Century 21 Family Realty, Relocation/Recruitment Director) almost 12 years ago

Must see to Apreciate!

When I see this in a listing I imediately jump to the following Conclussions :

  • Ugly house most people would just drive by
  • Horrible neigborhood but an ok house ( means overpriced )
  • Agent is trying to justify an over priced listing
  • May be good for a laugh if I am in the mood


Posted by Herb Hamilton, Real Estate Broker ,CDPE, Downtown Portland (RE/MAX Preferred Inc. Realtors) almost 12 years ago

LOL, Randy. I have had similar experiences, as I'm sure many have. Is there a question why the house is not selling? DUH!


Posted by Jeff Dowler, CRS, The Southern California Relocation Dude (Solutions Real Estate ) almost 12 years ago

With all those red flags it is hard not to tell your clients they might be in for a surprise. I have been in houses with dog hair so thick that it covers the carpet. The same house had dog poop in the upstairs bedroom.

Posted by Colorado Springs Real Estate almost 12 years ago

I think we have all had a similar experience with this.  I have learned that if there are no photos, or photos of the outside and not the inside, I usually stay away from it. Agents here will post phots of the views from the property, but nothing else......usually spells bad news......

Posted by David Lenke (Coldwell Banker Morris Real Estate) almost 12 years ago


Just yesterday I had a discussion with a client over the use of photos, (or lack of them) with a client.  A new upscale listing had multiple photos, yet no front exterior photo.  What was it they didn't want us to see?

While I know the majority of Realtors do a great job out there, it never ceases to maze me that others can absolutely be so clueless.

Posted by Lynda Eisenmann, Broker-Owner,CRS,CDPE,GRI,SRES, Brea,CA, Orange Co (Preferred Home Brokers) almost 12 years ago
It is always hard to figure out what it means when there isn't a picture.  Does it mean that agent is just lazy or does it mean that they are trying to hide something?  Questions pop up when they start with interior pictures and not exterior as well.
Posted by Patrick Brady (The Danberry Co., Realtors) almost 12 years ago
Nothing surprises me! I had been showing properties to a couple wanting to start buying fixer-uppers. They expected the worst so they weren't shocked when we toured a property listed for $9,900. That's right, I didn't miss any 0's. Anyhow, the ad said - great condition, prime location. WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!! There were buckets throughout the home to catch the water pouring in from the roof and it sat directly up against a landfill! I wonder, did the agent even go to the house?? Or maybe they just pick up the "How to write a real estate ad for Dummy's book" and randomly chose a draft. Who knows! I knew without looking at pictures or touring the property that it would be bad. The price informed me way ahead of time.
Posted by Melissa Sall, Realtor ~ Belmont County ~ Ohio (Sulek & Dutton Real Estate) almost 12 years ago


A classic example of over-promise and under-deliver.  This type of puffing just wastes everyone's time on both sides:  the clients and the agents. 

Posted by Valerie Baldwin, Harvey, Gresham Oregon Real Estate (John L. Scott Sandy) almost 12 years ago
That is a classic example of why I don't use automatic email to send new listings to clients.  Saves time weeding out the junk they shouldn't waste time seeing.
Posted by No Longer Active (Real Estate) almost 12 years ago

I think are some exceptions to the rule of photos.  I think when a home is under construction, at the very least there should be a floor plan posted, and if possible a photo of the lot before construction starts.

 As for agents not posting photos, I think some still think it will sell as soon as it hits the mls, even though thats not fully the case in all markets.  So its either some being lazy or some trying to hide something.

Posted by David Lenke (Coldwell Banker Morris Real Estate) almost 12 years ago


We've all seen this house many times in our careers.

One thing-what is a flag lot? That term is never used here in Michigan  that I know of. 

Posted by Anonymous almost 12 years ago


Sorry,I left the last comment not knowing I wasn't logged in 

Posted by Terry Lynch (LAR Notary and Closing Services) almost 12 years ago
Randy- Thanks for making me laugh this morning. I know there have many agents who tried to be creative in their descriptions but if truth were told, they were in fact misleading. Makes my job more interesting and most of the time...it's a good thing : )
Posted by Kelli Fronabarger, Realtor - Bend Oregon (Bend River Realty Inc.) almost 12 years ago

I'm with Terry, (but I'm a Rookie) and would like to know what a "Flag Lot" means too.

-- Jenn

Posted by Jennifer Martin (Letting License Expire in June 2010) almost 12 years ago

Thanks for the laugh........ How some agents stay in business is beyond me, I tried to show a property on saturday, agent remarks: "sold as is, needs a little fixin"  we got to the property before the buyers only to find out that the city of N. Las Vegas had tagged the house as "unsafe to occupy!"  the listing agent had no clue, he's never been in the house, he told us there was a lock box, which there wasnt, we called him and questioned him about the LB he told us " find a door and force your way in"  needless to say when the buyer got there we told her to look else where, 

i see why he only put one photo of the front, ( with out the tag of course) .....  

Posted by Estella Brown almost 12 years ago

maybe you can forward along this graphic for the agent to use.   Honestly people....   I hate having my time wasted on crap like that.   Thank that agent for me...   <ugh>




Posted by Desiree Daniels (RE/MAX Tri County) almost 12 years ago

That property certainly has it's share of problems.  Even when an agent try to do the right thing,  it can at times be challenging when a tenant is involved.  You have tenants who will do everything to create a bad impression to the buyer.

Your experience is one we could all relate to.

Posted by Jennifer Fivelsdal, Mid Hudson Valley real estate connection ( JFIVE Home Realty LLC | 845-758-6842|162 Deer Run Rd Red Hook NY 12571) almost 12 years ago
I know we are all trying to sell these homes. But, come on do it proper. I would blast the feedback so the owners can see what their agent is pulling. yuck
Posted by Susan Trombley, Broker/Realtor, Raleigh, Cary, Wake Forest, Youngs (Trombley Real Estate) almost 12 years ago
I really hate it when that sort of thing happens -- It is truly a waste of everyone's time.  I really love it when the picture shows the home with a piece of the driveway -- and when we arriive there is a steep long driveway- which most people in NH cannot deal with!  Then the agent calls for FEEDBACK!  You have got to be kidding!  Why not just tell the truth -- and look for buyers that have a big snow plow and ski equipment and don't care!  I simply don't get the point in not being truthful.
Posted by Joan Whitebook, Consumer Focused Real Estate Services (BHG The Masiello Group) almost 12 years ago

Very, very funny Randy. So how do you feel about the "bigger than it looks" remarks???

We have many flag lots here. Not so bad for folks in the front, but who wants to stare at the back of their neighbor's home all the time unless there are a lot of trees in between. The hillside would scare me, but then we're pretty flat here. No mudslides.

Posted by Elaine Reese, REALTOR® in central Ohio (Real Living HER, Powell Ohio) almost 12 years ago

Randy.  Thanks for these hints for listing agents.  Of course, I doubt that anyone reading Active Rain would be so irresponsible. 

Sometimes I thing that agents just say what has to be said to get listings, put them in the MLS like tossing balls of wet tissue on the wall to see what sticks.  That's playing by the numbers.  Not quality.

Of course, we can often see beyond the defects and price accordingly.  Not always. 

Posted by Lenn Harley, Real Estate Broker - Virginia & Maryland (Lenn Harley, Homefinders.com, MD & VA Homes and Real Estate) almost 12 years ago
Randy, thank you for the laugh this afternoon.  I always appreciate it when agents are so truthful!  What is a flag lot?
Posted by Bill Somerset, ABR, e-PRO - Realtor - NH Real Estate Agent (Re/Max Realty Group) almost 12 years ago

Hey Randy,

LOVE your POST....

Unfortunately one's man trash is another man's treasure, just not every man. I work a lot with foreclosure and pre-foreclosure listings. Indeed most of them are "must see to appreciate" kind. You would be surprised how many investors are out there that are looking for specifically that "must see to appreciate" kind of listings.

Posted by Anna Lukyanova (Century 21 Sundance Realty) almost 12 years ago

Lysa - Our MLS does not fine for no photos.  I call that job security.  Sellers who go on the internet will probably not want to use them.

Leigh - My favorite is priced to sell.  I guess most people price not to sell.

David and Tonya - You guessed right.  That was the one.

Posted by Randy Prothero, Hawaii REALTOR, (808) 384-5645 (eXp Realty) almost 12 years ago

Jefferey - If is need work, why not just say that.  I have get many buyers looking for them.

Herb - I agree with all of the above.

Jeff - I know the agent can't figure it out.  I wonder what she tells her client.

Posted by Randy Prothero, Hawaii REALTOR, (808) 384-5645 (eXp Realty) almost 12 years ago

This is a wonderful post because it just shows us what the public really thinks of the way we real estate agents lose our imagination.  We once had a Seller ask us to remove the word cozey in their description of the home because they felt that people would assume it meant the house was tiny.  Sometimes we can't win but we should do our best to make the listing as appealing in the buyer's mind's eye.


Lisa Hammerstein

Posted by Robert and Lisa Hammerstein -201-315-8618, Bergen County NJ Real Estate (Keller Williams Valley Realty) almost 12 years ago

Dan - I know they wouldn't like it.  They even said they know something must be wrong because of the lower price, but they still wanted to see it.

David - I see them here where they post pictures of the beach a mile away and nothing of the house.

Lynda - I have an apartment house that I recently listed.  I built a webpage for it with about 40 photos, so investors could look it over.  I have no respect for those who can not even take a couple of photos.

Posted by Randy Prothero, Hawaii REALTOR, (808) 384-5645 (eXp Realty) almost 12 years ago

Patrick - I can see an interior first if it is a condo with a new kitchen or something special.  Otherwise I completely agree with you.

Melissa - Was that the real price or a typo.  I have seen some like that where they left off zeros.

Valerie - Because of the age and price, we would have looked it even if they have better information and pictures.

Posted by Randy Prothero, Hawaii REALTOR, (808) 384-5645 (eXp Realty) almost 12 years ago

Dan - I use the e-mail, so I don't get accused of not making the entire list available or steering.

David - I wouldn't mind showing the rendering of the finished home or even a picture of the construction site.  Buyer's like that stuff.

Terry - A flag lot is a lot that the drive way goes between two properties and the home is behind one of the homes on the street.

Posted by Randy Prothero, Hawaii REALTOR, (808) 384-5645 (eXp Realty) almost 12 years ago
Randy, that sounds fun!!! Personally I won't take a tenant occupied listing unless it is multi-family. And I won't show them either. No excuse for that REALTOR(R) to put you and your buyer through that.
Posted by Bryant Tutas, Selling Florida one home at a time (Tutas Towne Realty, Inc and Garden Views Realty, LLC) almost 12 years ago

Kelli - I cracked up while on the mainland last year.  In the Ozarks, gentle slope meant the side of a cliff.

Jennifer - A lot behind a lot.  They are usually created where there was a big lot that was subdivided at some time creating one lot behind the other.  The driveway is the only thing that goes to the street.  In some cases here they used the condo law and made a common driveway for the two lots.  We call them CPRs (Condominium Property Regime)

Estella - I would just label it as a dump.  It would probably attract a lot of folks who love projects.

Posted by Randy Prothero, Hawaii REALTOR, (808) 384-5645 (eXp Realty) almost 12 years ago

Desiree - The sad part the building was only 4 years old.  Not a bad structure, if you don't mind waiting for the hill to bury it.

Jennifer - When I spoke to the agent, I did not get the impression that she even intended to call the tenant until I pressed her.

Susan - I never contact someone elses client no matter how tempting.

Posted by Randy Prothero, Hawaii REALTOR, (808) 384-5645 (eXp Realty) almost 12 years ago

Joan - I agree completely.  Do you think an agent who is too lazy to post a photo will follow-up for feed back?  Not likely.

Elaine - The hillside was scary and it is in valley that gets a lot of rain.

Lenn - I also observe that most of these listings are agents who you have never heard of.  The successful ones in the area handle their listings so much better.

Posted by Randy Prothero, Hawaii REALTOR, (808) 384-5645 (eXp Realty) almost 12 years ago

Bill - A lot behind a lot.  I better described a flag lot on the previous comments.

Anna - If the home needs major repairs, I prefer to say that so I can attract those buyers who are looking for them.  I have several repeat clients that will snap the right projects up in a heart beat.

Ben - If you show enough properties you will get funny stories on a regular basis.

Posted by Randy Prothero, Hawaii REALTOR, (808) 384-5645 (eXp Realty) almost 12 years ago

Lisa and Robert - I think you client had a point.  Many Realtors use the word cozy if the home is tiny.

Bryant - I take tenant occupied more than I want to admit.  I meet with the tenants first and make the proper arrangements and let them know exactly what to expect.  If they choose to work with me, I go out of my way to minimize any impact.  If the buyers decide they want to occupy, I help the tenants find a new place.  Most of the time it goes fairly smooth.  There have been a few that I can write wild stories about though.

Posted by Randy Prothero, Hawaii REALTOR, (808) 384-5645 (eXp Realty) almost 12 years ago


As always, I am appropriately late. SVVW...

Have you seen my "stupid" post? I think you have. Why don't you print it out and anonymously mail it to the Realtor with the poo-poo listing :)

Oh! I know. You could do the same thing with the I don't give a crap post :)

Sounds like a plan Stan...I mean Randy. LOL...


Posted by "The Lovely Wife" (Broker Bryantnulls Wife) The One And Only TLW. (President-Tutas Towne Realty, Inc.) almost 12 years ago
Let me see - a game of chess or show a listing like that one - that's an easy one!  I take it no offer forthcoming?!
Posted by Tony and Suzanne Marriott, Associate Brokers, Serving Scottsdale, Phoenix and Maricopa County AZ (BVO Luxury Group @ Keller Williams Arizona Realty) almost 12 years ago
It amazes me that agents do not show some of these items... someone may actually be interested with the low price if they do not feel deceived.
Posted by Thesa Chambers, Principal Broker - Licensed in Oregon (Fred Real Estate Group) almost 12 years ago

TLW - I think I will let the dog sleep.  Why wake her up?

Tony - Nope no offer.

Thesa - I find that very few of my clients want to see the lsitings that don't have pictures.  Agents should be shot for not posting pictures.

Posted by Randy Prothero, Hawaii REALTOR, (808) 384-5645 (eXp Realty) almost 12 years ago
Heck, I'll show anything to make a point. It's very instructive to a prospective buyer to show them a home  you think as a dump so that the next time you tell them a property is a dump, they'll know you really mean it. I also keep a mental list of dumps to sell my fixer upper folks when they surface for a new project.
Posted by Irene Potter, Creating moving experiences in real estate (ZipRealty Residential Brokerage) almost 12 years ago

Okay My Friend...You teed this one up nice and pretty...



Posted by "The Lovely Wife" (Broker Bryantnulls Wife) The One And Only TLW. (President-Tutas Towne Realty, Inc.) almost 12 years ago
Randy I somehow missed this great post.  You touched on quite a few of my pet peeves.  But like you say, it clears the way for the good agents to really stand out.  Great work on this post!  (plus I'm always learning from you.  Today I learned what a flag lot is.  Thanks :))
Posted by Maggie Dokic | Miami, FL | 305.81.HOUSE (46873), GREEN, CDPE, SFR, Pinecrest | Palmetto Bay | (eXp Realty LLC) almost 12 years ago
Yep, must see to appreciate.  Should have said something like "beware".  Oops! You can't say stuff like that anymore can you.
Posted by Roger Stensland, Let's Move! (Keller Williams Realty Puget Sound) almost 12 years ago
Unbelievable but true.  Do realtors like that really belong in our business?  I don't think so.
Posted by Ken Spencer, for Verrado, Buckeye, Sundance (Serendra Realty Group ) almost 12 years ago
Another idiot!
Posted by Laurie Manny (Long Beach CA Real Estate) almost 12 years ago

Irene - I believe that many folks need more than you word.  A great visual is always helpful.


Maggie - Thank you for the kind words.  I am glad it was helpful information.

Posted by Randy Prothero, Hawaii REALTOR, (808) 384-5645 (eXp Realty) almost 12 years ago

Roger - Beware of dog would have covered the deck.  LOL

Ken - Many really should kind a different line of work, yet many seem to linger around for years.

Laurie - One of many.

Posted by Randy Prothero, Hawaii REALTOR, (808) 384-5645 (eXp Realty) almost 12 years ago

Randy, good post and fun reading. Really like the graphics used by Desiree. There is a reason why I make ALL my own appointments. And one is to save the buying agent's time. They could have said "Not a drive by" meaning just keep on going!

Posted by Margaret Rome, Baltimore Maryland, Sell Your Home With Margaret Rome ( HomeRome Realty 410-530-2400) almost 12 years ago
I was thinking "a Pig with Lipstick" might cover it.
Posted by Randy Prothero, Hawaii REALTOR, (808) 384-5645 (eXp Realty) almost 12 years ago
Randy, isn't it amazing the "competition" out there? This is why I never wonder why the public has the perception they do of "Realtors." I work hard every day to raise the bar but, unfortunately, there will always be the types who's goal seems to be lowering the bar. Some days it seems like one step forward, two steps back. Great post btw. It shows those reading what some of our daily challenges really are. Thanks for sharing!
Posted by Ryan Hukill - Edmond, Realtor, Team Lead (ShowMeOKC Real Estate Pros of KW Elite) almost 12 years ago
Ryan - In my experience the percentages of bums are the same in almost every type of business.  You can get ahead in almost anything you do because there are many who juts cruise and others who are just flat lousy.
Posted by Randy Prothero, Hawaii REALTOR, (808) 384-5645 (eXp Realty) almost 12 years ago

Been there, done that! Photos do tell the story most of the time. When I was  a rookie, not that long ago, I showed as the listing agent advised. She told me the alarm was off - WRONG! The next thing was this home (less than a year old) was owned by a couple of single engineers. How did I know? The only thing on the walls were the framed degrees from the university they attended. Also, they must have been bachelors because there were ladies garments and shoes all over the house. The icing on the cake - a turtle was being kept in the "garden tub!"  Of course my clients lost interest pretty quickly!

I know sellers want to see the narrative in the listing. I guess most agents try to paint a pretty picture and keep their clients happy but, come on, tell it sort of like it is! I guess a lot can be said for previewing properties. Of course, in an ideal world this possible. Most of the time, you just have to rely on the listing agents presentation via photos and the narrative!

Posted by Gary L. Waters Broker Associate, Bucci Realty, Fifteen Years Experience in Brevard County (Bucci Realty, Inc.) almost 12 years ago
Gary - That sounded like an intersting showing.
Posted by Randy Prothero, Hawaii REALTOR, (808) 384-5645 (eXp Realty) almost 12 years ago

Just read this and I have to say I LOVE IT!...before it jaunt back to "Part 2"

Posted by Kelly Kilpatrick, Broker-Associate almost 12 years ago
Kelly - Thanks
Posted by Randy Prothero, Hawaii REALTOR, (808) 384-5645 (eXp Realty) almost 12 years ago

Boy, oh boy.  You should have stayed long enough to have one of the occupantes come out and start screaming at you to leave.  I had that happen when I had "scheduled" an apt. with the listing office of a listing.  My client and I showed up at the scheduled time.  No one was home, which is fine with me, we had a key.  In we went and while my client was looking around at the HUGE MESS, the tenant came home, asked what were we doing in his home and kicked us out. 

Guess someone forgot to give him a courtesy call.  I would have been angry too.

Posted by Fran Gatti, Managing Principal Broker - RE/MAX Integrity (RE/MAX Integrity) almost 12 years ago
Fran - That is really lousy of the listing office.  They will have one bad time selling the home after upsetting the tenant.
Posted by Randy Prothero, Hawaii REALTOR, (808) 384-5645 (eXp Realty) almost 12 years ago

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